UPSC selection process – reservations.

The UPSC system of selection is a good balance of merit and affirmative action.

What i feel is needed is

Firstly, a clarity on the definition of General/Open Category seats.

Available here refers to giving a choice to candidates at the beginning of the application process

and

Given here refers to the end of selection process where the final list is prepared

should these “open-seats” be “available”+”given” to everyone including reserved category? (As the standard of performance of Reserved candidates goes up continuously “giving” seats will lead eventually to zero selections from general category as they have no quota once we use the definition that “General seats” as “given” to “ALL”) Which is double reservation.

OR

Whether these “open seats” should be “available” to those who mention their category as “General” in their forms from the beginning (As these seats are already “available” to everyone while applying. these should not be “given” to “everyone” once the reserved candidate has forfeited his right of applying in the seats already “available” to all)

and

Secondly, the question of responsibility of state.

Is it to “enable” the backward category to be able to compete for jobs on the same footing as with general via reservations in higher education?

OR

giving reservation in higher education and jobs both? which is double reservation and dilution of the concept of “equality of opportunity”.

Personal Verdict

1. General category should be open to only those who apply as general since the option to apply as general is available to all

2. Reservation benefit should be available at one point, either jobs OR in higher education at the discretion of the candidate, NOT both.

UPSC Vs. Madras HC impact on results of CS 2007

Below you will find lots of people giving their ideas on various aspects of UPSC examination and the impact of Madras HC decision on the results date. Its presented in a very disorganized fashion but it is chronological order from the earliest post on top and latest at the bottom. Goodluck understanding this if you are planning to read it. Its only for my filing purposes.

 

after going through some data in my opinion expected ratio should hover between 1/2.795-1/2.885 accordingly the seats one can expect are 655-675.
tho one never knows upsc could bowl a chautha for all one knows and beat all data crunching

last year (CSE 2006) it was notified as 455 and finally 474 recommendations made under examination rules section 19(2). reserved list of 116 was prepared separately (over and above 474) under rule 16(4) and 16(5). At the end of which, UPSC cancelled the candidature of 16 final recommendations.
Accordingly the reserved seats will be extra, not included in 655-675 estimate. Approx 160-165.
One can see that in 2006 all ministries together had asked UPSC to recruit 632 candidates but finally 474 recommendations were made. Refer para 5 http://delhicourts.nic.in/Apr07/U%20P%20S%20C%20Vs%20CIC.pdf
but remember all final result lists since 2005 exam onwards are sub judice and if quashed then many who are undergoing training at lbsnaa right now or even confirmed could be thrown out and also those who will be selected this time and in future could be axed till the matter is finally adjudicated by SC. this applies to all selected since 2005 including this year. Refer point 2 of 2006 final result press note here
http://www.upsc.gov.in/exams/final-results/csm/2006/idx,prnote&rol.htm#PageTop
which is reproduced below for convenience.
2. Appointment to the various Services will be made according to the number of vacancies available with due consideration to the provisions contained in Rules 2 and 19 of the Rules of the Examination and subject to the final decision of the Supreme Court / High Court / C.A.Ts. on the S.L.Ps. / R.As / W.Ps. O.As. pending therein.
So far madras high court has already quashed the previous year final lists…
refer http://www.winentrance.com/news/Merit-lists-Civil-Services-Exam-quashed.html
so even when the final result comes this year think twice before popping the champagne bottle 😉

i thought the conclusion was evident from the last post. just to give a gist of the earlier post the rules by which upsc prepares final merit list has been thrown in the dustbin by madras hc. now until SC tells how to prepare the list before declaration of final results there is no way to prepare the list. does upsc use the current quashed 16(2) rule or use the new rule which is approved by madras HC but still being considered by SC?
so the list which will come for 2007 (including 2005/2006 lists) will be invalid until SC gives a final decision on how to prepare the lists. whether to follow 16(2) method or the madras HC method?

@ramanjit
why do u want a stay order and what is the use/purpose of stay order? it will still not make the results fully final.

@invisagod

last time sucha a case took ten years to resolve so u want that kind of a time frame. it will b done by a stay and we can keep fighting till ages and ages hence. result will come.

rather than just hats off i would suggest helping ramanjit by giving some arguments to improve the chances of getting the stay order whenever they go for it.
here are some arguments which might help from my side.
1. In the common order, the Bench said the Supreme Court had held that a reserved category candidate getting selected on his own merit should be considered only as an unreserved candidate and not as a reserved category candidate.
the word “considered” as used above in the order by Madras HC citing the Supreme Court decision in R.K. Sabharwal’s case and Satya Prakash’s case means that equal opportunities should be given to meritorious reserved candidates e.g. service choice etc. but it does not mean that the classification of caste of reserved category should be changed to general category. This is a misinterpretation of law by Madras High Court. Also this is deceptive as General to Reserved ratio will be 1:1 even when real general selection will be reduced to 15-20% of total selections… already it is around 35-45% out of total selections.
2. The judgment should be applicable prospectively and not retrospectively because once a process has begun with some set of rules even if unfair the rules cannot be changed mid way and if decision is applied retrospectively then it will be violation of natural justice.
3. Already the benefits taken by candidates in previous stages of examination have complicated matters and untangling the mess will require re inviting many candidates for writing papers which is impractical so this is another reason to apply the decision prospectively and not retrospectively.
i hope you guys are successful in getting the stay order.

Abhishek

@invisagod….nice to see that u tend to go to the root of the problems…..
i dont know how far this observation might b of use…..the credit of this observation goes to shirin (goodbye orkut)…….
suppose sum1 from the reserved category comes in the general merit range and he/she is adjusted in the general category in the final selection list…..but the same person might have taken the benefit of reservation in the previous stages, i.e in pre & mains…..and since he has already taken the benefit of reservation in earlier steps how can he suddenly claim to have competed in the general merit when he might have utilised the benefit of reservation in the same examination (though in the earlier stage)…….how can the consistency of sum1’s category b maintained in all the stages ?

aashwita

a person can only claim 2b under general merit if he/she hs not availed any relaxation by way of age,marks or attempt at any stage.In any case,we r fighting out ths case….d observations made by a few ppl above r correct n they’ve already been considered by d lawyers we r engaging.

gudbye postponed

well my another argument is that for a reserved person to be considered in the general list , he should have in the beginning filled the form as a “general category” candidate…. it can certainly not be his privilige to be be considered either as ‘general’ or ‘reserved’ as per the situation. infact in all previous cases regarding reservations SC has encouraged such a practice to truely empower the disadvantaged sections.
if general category intake is reduced to as low as 15-20 percent… it is extremally frustrating and it might just lead to flight of all talent abroad..

as a pure policy concern reservation is solvable where both parties get their due share but politics vitiates and polarizes the debate with little hope of a rational stance being taken by any community…
as meritorious face crunch of seats there will be flight of talent abroad like shirin mentioned already but west faces cyclical economic depressions where jobs are lost and most immigrants are sent packing home.
the situation indeed becomes frustrating where the general category gets stuck between the devil(economic depression in western countries where they are sent home from) and deep sea(everything controlled by reserved category back home).

aashwita

@invisagod
well abt a yr back ,CAT Chennai struck dwn rule 16(3) and (4), but not clause (2).Subsequently,the High Court went a step further n declared d entire rule 16(2) void.Clauses 3 and 4 governed d contingency list and unfortunately,the DOPT and UPSC lost the case in both instances.However,with 16(2) under clout they cannot afford a silimar outcome at d Supreme Court.

Invisagod

guys the issue is a little bit beyond upsc now… you can contact the concerned CPIO in DOPT for more precise info.
http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:L7sRHjkaLUIJ:persmin.nic.in/RTIforMOP/ListOfCPIOs_Notification.pdf+http://persmin.nic.in/RTIforMOP/ListOfCPIOs_Notification.pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

gudbye postponed

result definately monday ya tuesday ko aayega….but it is impossible that it will be legally appropriate… so only the ones getting really good ranks in general category ahould actually proceed with the post result celebrations… for others things would still be uncertain subject to the final decision by Supreme Court… 😦 😦

Invisagod

@gudbye
all general candidates can celebrate if it comes on 12th yaar as list will be as per madras HC decision but ya if later the madras decision is reversed by Supreme Court then some more general candidates will be included in the final list at the expense of those reserved ranks who r taking benefit of extra reserved seats under madras decision now.

Invisagod

@gudbye
bottom 1/3rd approx ranks of general category of the years 2005 and 2006 only are affected since their list was prepared using the now illegal 16(2) rule
now madras decision will be used so 2007 list will already have less general category people on 12th… correct me if im wrong…

gudbye postponed

@ invisagod

yes you sound very logical… 🙂 going by your arguments i totally agree with you… result will definately come on time… but are you sure it will be as per madras hc order… i dunno about the legal aspect of this…
but if it does come according to madras hc decision…all dat you are saying will be correct..

gudbye postponed

and if result is prepared as per HC decision , general cadidate intake will be very less… this is scary…. 😦

Invisagod

merit vs opportunity

If the result comes on 12th decision will 100% be as per madras HC else it will be contempt of court. As far as number of intake of general category is concerned I think the ball is still in the court of UPSC now.
So far under the impugned rule meritorious reserved candidates were being given a choice of claiming better service from the reserved category posts and they were being adjusted against them, there by creating more general seats. In effect general category was being promoted, meritorious reserved category was being promoted and non meritorious reserved category was being pushed out. This was a good balance between merit and opportunity especially since UPSC was strict about the creamy layer issue.
Now with the quashing of 16(2) meritorious reserved candidates will be adjusted against general category instead of reserved category in effect general category will lose seats, meritorious reserved candidates will lose out better services but non meritorious reserved category will gain seats to the extent of meritorious reserved candidates present.

What does UPSC do now? Well UPSC even now is fully capable of maintaining the merit and opportunity balance by adjusting the raw marks(after adding interview marks) of all candidates so that the highest marks and also the marks of the last candidate to be selected in both categories are as close as possible to each other. Once this is done one more scaling of selected reserved category candidates can be done in a way that highest marks of reserved category are just below lowest marks of general category and overlap to the extent of 5% of seats to maintain consistency with past data. This way bottom tier of general category and bottom tier of reserved candidates will be automatically eliminated and situation will be a balance of merit and opportunity again. This will also ensure that madras high court decision is followed and at the same time circumvented.
Frankly I’m appalled to see the poor mental caliber of Madras HC judges. In my opinion madras decision is not only anti merit but also anti reserved categories besides of course being anti general category. It’s just a waste of public money and time.

Abhishek

@invisagod

… “Frankly I’m appalled to see the poor mental caliber of Madras HC judges. In my opinion madras decision is not only anti merit but also anti reserved categories besides of course being anti general category. It’s just a waste of public money and time…”
careful buddy….:)….lest u infuriate our “honourable” judges….

Invisagod

@abhishek
batlle between the 3 government organs is an old one. i’m just carrying on the tradition 😉

Invisagod

@abhishek

there are many reasons this case is a waste of money and time. The judges have done what is called “non application of mind” legally and an “error in law” has been committed which according to SC when committed is always an insult to the legal profession. Coming to the guys who have filed this case have hit the axe on their own foot. read below 😉
1. judges think upsc is taking seats out of 49% quota and giving it to general category. here is a quote of the judge which makes it clear that they don’t understand the issue
“The rule of reservation is applicable to a post in service. When a post in service is reserved, the question of allotting a post in service in the reserved category to a person who has been included in the unreserved merit list does not arise,” The bold part is added by me for greater clarity of what they are saying.
Suppose there are 100 posts in a service out of which 49 are reserved. What the judge is saying is these 49 reserved posts cannot be allotted to unreserved category…
2. constitution in Article 16 says that SEBCs must be employed as far as possible but not at the cost of Administrative efficiency. There should be a balance between the two.
3. The judges have misinterpreted the law given in Satya prakash case w.r.t. to the word “considered” as mentioned in the vacancy thread earlier.
4. guys (reserved) who have filed this case have hit an axe on their foot. Supose i’m an inteligent reserved candidate the dilemma before me now is how to avoid the merit reserved category, that is i must perform so well that i’m at top of the reserved quota(to get a better service) and not over perform to enter the general category and get a worse service. OR perform so well that i come right on top with general ranks and get the choice of service. which is basically stupid. preferential allotment is an incentive for reserved to perform better given by upsc which a very smart thing under 16(2)
its clearly a case of andher nagri (case filers) and choupat raja (HC judges)

Abhishek

@invisagod …
i hv been following the views n counterviews in this thread ….really impressed by ur analytical approach and use of analogies …wish u luck ,need guys like u in service …

Abhishek

@ invisagod

good job mate…..:)…..proving that the executive is head and shoulders above the other organs of state…..waise where do u find the time and patience to do these background analysis??

aashwita

exactly it is a judgement tht reeks of little sense.Imagine d scenario-Cut off9gen) is 1200 and a reserved category student(say an OBC) scores 1205 .Another OBC candidate scores 1170(below d gen cut off).Now what d judgement entails is tht d 1st student should not be allowed 2 exercise his quota and should stay in say postal service(because he is in general merit nw) ,while d one with 1170 may get IRS/1PS.So all in all its violative of one’s right,undermines merit n has v little reason

Invisagod

@abhishek thanks yar all the best to you also 🙂
@ abhishek lolz thanks man now we know how silly things can get… n we all wrapped up the last 3-4 yrs of this case in just about a week n also the possible future direction !! thnx to all…
@ all
the best way to go from here would be to file an SLP (which dopt is doing) and while that application is processed at SC, UPSC shud release the results as per 16(2) rule with or without the stay order on time i.e. 12th/13th…
this will invite contempt proceedings but upsc can
1. take a plea of “public interest” and “time bound” process
2. make it a question of future of 1800 candidates and
3. another plea can be “lack of co-ordination between dopt and upsc” lolzz
4. that SLP had been filed…
5. absence of any detailed alternative to 16(2)
6. etc. etc.
slowly this case shud reach its logical conclusion in SC and die the death it deserves…
and it should be a happy ending…
in conclusion its very likely that result will be on time and also support merit like in earlier years… lets just hope they r positive. all the best guys 🙂

IAS versus IFS

the mains form is here and i guess it will be with you all very soon if it isnt already there. i’m having some last minute jitters filling up the services could some of you kindly give your opinions on what i’ve written below…

ifs – because of navtej sarna, nirupama rao, arundhati ghose – I want to be
in their shoes someday!! early career is great you get to learn new
languages interact with new people visit distant capitals. there is greater
camaraderie amongst batch mates because of a small batch size. time for
intellectual blogging. good exposure and opportunity for personal growth.
usually the best working environment which govt can provide. organising
cultural programs. I enjoy going to the india habitat centre often and
organising the same abroad will be great e.g. dance music. you don’t get
thrown away to distant villages and states. your cadre doesn’t become a
reason for one to contemplate leaving the job.

later in career too one could possibly join rajya sabha or like our new VP
mr. ansari hope to reach a titular office of grandeur.!

ias – because the tag is easily recognised by one and all. it reverberates
through peoples head as someone not to be messed with. minor irritants in
life get sorted out easily. how far is it true for ifs? however early in
career to be thrown amongst the villagers in an office which is a leaky road
side shack wouldn’t be a great thing. ass licking your way up the postings
and promotions ladder for getting anything worthwhile. I believe right now
im comfortably placed in new delhi, with ias, delhi itself would become a
luxury destination. why demote myself in life? but then top 45 ranks without
an aberration have picked IAS in 2006! maybe I missed some point? or maybe
they are all way too inspired to help the down trodden.?

policy formulation quite interesting but implementation is only – alright.
preparing answers for parliament more clerical sort of work in my opinion.

messing around with goons of politicians when polling has gone wrong and
I’ve to order a repoll would be dangerous for the family. staying in states
I will get a meagre Rs. 15 per month for children education. it would be
much better putting them in british school or american school via ifs.

what use is the intelligence and energy which I will bring to the government
if integrity itself will be battered and will force me to kill my ideals or
get out to save my skin!

later in the career one could again join rajya sabha or join politics e.g.
yashwant sinha, jaswant singh, manmohan singh and so on..

I believe there is some restriction imposed by mea against interacting with
certain people when on a mission abroad. is that true?

eventually I reasoned it will be luck if I got in top 50! so why not put ias
on top, ifs has a greater chance to come anyway! and would I be leading a
frivolous/fake life in ifs for the work profile available?
e.g. in the nuke deal what couldn’t be sorted out by the diplomats was
eventually sorted out by ias and technocrats. so will I only be a curious
traveller and a drama organiser in ifs at the end of it?

how difficult is it for an ias officer to go abroad… my neighbours just
returned from a 3 year posting to washington, he is from the 1979 ias batch
but he seems to have some major links as he was in delhi 10 years prior to
that and has now shifted his madhya pradesh office to MP bhawan in new delhi
and will stay here till his retirement! this is just an exceptionally well
connected case. what is the usual life..

I hope I can get this sorted out and be sure about things help will be
appreciated 🙂